Pete: We've got an exciting one today. They've been enjoying a lot of success lately: performed two sold out shows just last week; their single, Popcast, has been scaling up the charts; and they've just released their debut album - Madonna Whore. So excited to have The Indie Service in the studio today.

Liam: Thank you so much. You're literally a god to - I think - all of us; so, to be here, right now, t's insane, man.

Harry: Well, the studio looks better than it sounds, that's for sure. (All laugh) What? You broke, mate?

Pete (Laughs): I mean, I'm no indie superstar. I drink my whisky with my tea; so, I don't know - you tell me.

James: Maybe we could feature you in our next single?

(All laugh)

Liam: That's how it works.

Pete: Yeah, well, I've been enjoying this record, boys. It sounds-- I don't know-- so authentic. I think it sounds great, and there's some great lyrics on it. How did it all come about? Did you write the songs? What did that look like?

Liam: Yeah, actually. We-- like, we write our own music because we want our music to sound authentic, you know? I mean, I think no one knows us better than us, you know? No one knows our fans better than us; no one knows our message better than us. I mean, I'm not shitting on musicians that have, like, songwriters and all that; it's just not us, you know?

Harry: Yeah, I mean, we like to think of ourselves as, like, fucking artists or whatever; so, like, we kind of value just sharing an authentic message with our fans. I mean, there's a lot happening in the UK right now, and I think we're intelligent enough that we have an opinion on it.

Pete: That's interesting - what you just said - because there is a lot going on in the UK, and - first track - you make it clear that you won't shy away from it. It's about Jack Letts, right?

Harry: It is. I mean, I think the UK government is very stupid - a lot of stupid decisions are constantly being made by parliament, the queen signs off on stupid propositions, the courts are a fucking joke! First, his parents are arrested for funding terrorism or whatever, and it's like, they sent him two-hundred Pounds! I mean, I think ISIS is fucking rich, bro, and if they wanted funds, they would probably need more than two-hundred Pounds, you know?

James: And then there's the whole thing where they revoked his citizenship--

Pete: I think that's insane too! I think Canada has called England out and they've said it's irresponsible of the government to do.

James: It's pathetic is what it is. I mean, the UK government is-- it very much operates on the fear of its people. It's disgusting because I think this Jack guy has literally been called a terrorist and it kind of feels like the only reason that he is, is that he's Islamic and the UK - and maybe just the Western World, in general - is just fearful of anything that isn't Christian. I think this whole thing is exposing just how cowardly Boris is; how cowardly his cabinet is.

Pete: And I think the fact that you still released this song, even though the event it's related to happened so long ago - so it may not resonate with a lot of people, really speaks to your respect for your art, you know?

Harry: Was it though? It literally just happened last month and it's already cold news? That's what scares me about the world right now: there's always so much going on that something that happened literally yesterday is already ancient news today! And then we ask ourselves why we can't seem to care about anything - that's why! We're constantly bombarded with all these shocking news from all around the world that we'd simply go insane if we cared about each and every one of them. Of course, the shame in that is that now we care about nothing - if it doesn't involve us, it's easy to forget about it. But we have to think about the fact that it doesn't stop being news for the people involved. We have to think: 'are politicians using our alienation for their advantage?' And I think the answer is yes! I think politicians do the most despicable things because they know they'll be exposed, but just as quickly, it'll be old news and we'll all have forgotten two-three days later. That's why politicians are as evil as they've been since being a politician became a job; that's why aristocrats are still able to get away with exploiting civilians; that's why we still have no power in this insane system.

(Pause)

Liam: Please give him time to cool off; this is something he's extremely passionate about.

(All but Harry laugh)

Pete: No, I was quiet because I was speechless, because you're absolutely right! Let me share this story with you: so, a few months back, I was in the pub with my friend Kevin - he's from the US - and we were talking about what could lead to the collapse of our modern civilisation--

Liam: As two friends in a pub do.

Pete: As two friends in a pub do. (All but Harry laugh) Fun fact: in 1972, a group of American scientists anticipated that our civilisation would collapse by 2040 and, in 2018, KPMG said it'll happen sooner - I also don't know when accountants started counting when we'd all go up in flames, but here we are! So, anyways, we're talking, and Kevin tells me that Gen Z will be the last generation to grow into adults because: 'Millennials are all a bunch of snowflakes who start a demonstration because they feel the weather's too hot.' So, I tell him I don't agree with that, right? I say-- I tell him that I think Gen Z is probably the best thing to happen to this world - they're holding us all accountable for the shit we did to the Earth. Not just that, but they're also trying their best to correct it all. I tell him of how these kids are going vegan and are demanding for all these large, powerful corporations to fix all the shit havoc they wreak on the environment.

Pete: So, then he tells me: 'That's not true. Everything you just said is not true - these kids are failing at everything they think they're doing. The only thing I'll give them credit for is that they have found a way to make their ideas such an omnipresent fixture of society.' And then he tells me-- he says: 'Even if it's true that they're succeeding at fixing our society - that's actually even worse. Everything that's happened up until now - none of it is reversible. And the mistake that these kids make is that they think they can fix things without a huge overhaul of the present systems - just put socialism in place of capitalism and then everything will be fine; but then, who will be government? How will they govern? What will make it so different from what we have today - apart from everyone smoking weed and smiling for fifteen hours and getting paid the same? And how will they ensure that no genius thinks - two centuries later: 'what if we started incentivising people to start businesses?'' And that is what I'm scared of is that these kids aren't aware of just how massive the changes they're trying to bring are, and maybe they'll succeed in changing the world, but not in the way they think.

Pete: What was I trying to get to? (Pause) Scott?

Scott: (Almost indistinctly) I think you were talking about the end of the world? I dunno.

Pete: Wow! Thanks, Scott. That fucking helps!

(All laugh)

Pete: Anyways, let's just keep things moving. Next question: how do you write your songs? Is there a particular ritual you guys follow? Do you all write together, or do you each bring your homework to the studio and piece it all there?

Harry: Do you want to take this one, James?

James: Of course, because I get to answer the boring questions? (All laugh) I'm joking. It's a mix, really. We do whatever feels right. I mean, sometimes, we like working together and writing in the same room, all of us working on one song; but sometimes we fight, and we don't want to see each other, you know what I mean? Sometimes, we get tired of each other; or one day I might be inspired by something while I'm alone in my car or wherever. It doesn't make sense for me to be like: 'I'm not going to write that because we always write together' or whatever. So, it's a mix. Most of our songs, we write together in the studio, but sometimes it's literally just better to write alone, and in that case, the credits and royalties go to the writer - we think that's fair.

Pete: That's an interesting system. Do you not find it risky? I mean, great bands like The Beatles had a lot of infighting because of that kind of system, Queen decided to let go of it because, wouldn't you guess it, it caused a lot of fights in the group. Would you agree with the belief that that kind of system - breaking the royalties up by who wrote the song - can end a group's career?

Harry: I mean--

Liam: It's--

(Pause)

Pete: It's fine, I think let's let Harry talk, and then we'll come back to you.

Harry: I was saying, I don't think that's true. I don't follow The Beatles a lot, but I don't think an entire group would let go of all that success just because they don't want to give-- fucking Paul McStuffing or whoever his fair share of royalties. At the end, fair is fair, and if doing the right thing - that is, recognise everyone for their work and reward them for it - is what leads to the breaking apart of groups, then good! I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

Liam: Completely disagree. I have, in fact, brought it up that it's a stupid system, but no one wanted to listen to me. These two told me something about efficiency or whatever, just a whole bunch of nonsense, but I feel like, if anything, this system breeds complacency because then we all just try to write as many songs as possible and have them on the album - no matter how bad they are - just so we can collect more royalties. That hasn't happened yet, but we're human, we get greedy. After two successful albums, who's to say that won't happen? I've always said that the minute we start to split the profits equally, that's when our music will be great because we'll all be focussed on making good music and not on out-earning each other.

Pete: Wow. Harry, do you have a better argument than 'fair is fair'? (Laughs)

(Pause)

Pete: Hey, don't be mad at me that your shit argument got flushed!

(All but Harry laugh)

Pete: Interesting stuff: we were literally just talking about capitalism, and we land back there. Isn't that insane? Let's talk about the state of indie music: a lot of people think this is a great time for indie music - aesthetically, a lot of music is being influenced by it; in terms of its profile, Forbes ran an article hailing indie as the future of the industry. Why do you think that is the case?

Liam: Sterilisation. (All laugh) Yeah, but-- indie is becoming this big thing because it's been sterilised by some big music execs in shiny suits, and they've decided it's now worthy of their time, so it gets to go big. I mean, at the core, music is such a personal experience, and I think it gets more and more corruptible the more mainstream it goes; so, I don't know how I feel about this whole Indie Golden Age! - or whatever.

Pete: So-- and I'm just trying to understand you here, so correct me if I'm wrong; but I think you're saying maybe that mainstream music is bad? Or whatever?

Liam: Not really - I mean, that's not even remotely what I said. What I'm trying to say is that indie music is built on the intimacy between the performer and the listener - I think it's more than making low fidelity music (hence low fidelity music is not indie music). Now, put that in a shiny studio with fifty songwriters, and you lose that intimacy. Then it's no longer indie, is it? I mean, I think the argument that nothing mainstream is worthwhile is very... like, an old man yells at cloud kind of argument - mainstream music is good, hence a lot of people like it; but when a lot of people like something, then execs will inevitably try simplify it to a formula and tell their artists to use that formula to sell more records-- do with that argument what you will.

Harry: I think that's true - and I think there's a lot of artists doing great lo-fi music, but would I call it indie? No. I think intimacy is literally the foundation for what indie is, and when you don't have the foundation, it's not indie, you know?

Pete: How loyal would you say you are to indie?

(Pause)

Harry: What the fuck does that mean, Pete?

(All laugh)

Pete: What I mean is, you know, typically, we expect an artist to be loyal to the genre or style that made people like them in the first place - we want you to be radical and change things up every now and then, but you can't do a full one-eighty so that your core fans don't even recognise you. How true is this to how you make music?

Harry: Rubbish! We're loyal to no one - I don't think any artist should be loyal to anyone. Because then, everyone is comfortable. We're not loyal at all; we're promiscuous; we're just as cool with going full Rock n Roll; we wouldn't be scared to do some soft RnB if we felt like it; we may just come with a pop or a dance record if anyone isn't careful. Country, jazz, hip-hop. I think people need to stop feeling so entitled over artists - I don't make music for you; I make music for me. If you like with what I've made, great! If you don't fuck with it, then that's also fine. I don't want to be limited by what my fans want! I don't want to be limited by myself; why would I want someone else to have that kind of power over me?

Pete: Damn! I feel like I've said some variation of that word so many times, but it's literally because you just keep shocking me with how smart you are. I swear, when I was told I'd be interviewing you, I thought I'd be talking to some potheads who yell shit like: 'Cancel culture sucks!' - and think they're saying something radical. (Pause) I'm joking; that's not what I thought. I thought you'd say that black people should be ashamed that they're excited over Black Panther. (All laugh) Let's talk influences - who do you listen to when you're working?

James: Oh, that's easy: Pavement, Built to Spill, Broadcast, Arcade Fire; you know - those are the Oprahs of the genre, you know - absolutely untouchable. And then there's the modern legends: The Cribs, Franz Ferdinand, The Strokes; you've got The Paddingtons and The Killers. That's an easy question, bro.

Liam: Hey! Harry really likes Elton John!

Pete: Is that right, Harry?

Harry: Oh, fuck off! Come back to me when your fave curates the best soundtrack of all time! The Lion King? Forget Oprah; that's-fucking god-tier!

(All laugh)

Pete: Here's a question - just for the fun of it: has any one of you ever been in a gay bar?

(Pause)

James: We've all been to a gay bar, bro.

Pete: Really?

James: I mean Liam, over here, is gay, so we've got to be good wingmen, you know? (All laugh) Well, that's actually a half-joke; we've actually performed in gay bars; some of our most fun gigs have been in gay bars; but we also help Liam get laid from time-to-time, yeah.

Pete: That's interesting; have you ever been with a guy? Or maybe you've been hit on by a g--

Liam: Well, I have.

(All laugh boisterously)

Pete: Yeah, not you, Liam! You're not very interesting in this conversation.

Liam: I figured as much; I just thought someone might find that interesting.

(De-escalating laughter)

Harry: I have, actually.

Pete: Really? How was it?

Harry: I don't know-- like, it was sex? Man, I don't know. I knew something was weird when I couldn't fucking stand straight for the next week, but otherwise it was literally just sex.

(All laugh)

Pete: Wait! So, you were the receiving partner?

Harry: I've been the receiving partner; I've been the dominant partner; I never really cared about the politics of who's on top and who's on the bottom.

Pete: Part of the reason that I asked that question, really, was because I've seen a lot of men fantasise about you guys, and I thought it might be funny to see you guys react to some of their tweets because they're extremely graphic.

James: Yeah, we know all about those; we read those when we masturbate in the studio.

Pete: Well, that's perfectly normal. Another reason, though, was because I've also noticed that your work also touches upon gayness and just being very welcoming of gay people.

Liam: I mean, part of that is really acknowledging that-- I mean, I was very fortunate, I guess, that virtually everyone around me was cool with me even after I told them I was gay, and I was able to cut off those who weren't; but we know that's not everyone's experience. So, it's really like, how do I tell my story while also affirming those that aren't as lucky as I am, or those that are still in the closet, that type of shit. Funny, it was actually really easy because-- authenticity, I guess.

Pete: Wow! I love that. I love gays, if you haven't noticed: it's like, they're just these unicorns - extremely strong, always happy, always spreading joy even though the world is so shitty to them, you know?

Liam: Yeah but, like, things are changing; I think I read somewhere that gay men in the US are now earning ten percent more than straight men or whatever? I don't know. But it's also-- there's a lot more people that are struggling - transwomen are treated like shit right now; I think gay men are fine for now.

Pete: Agreed. James, what's up with you? You haven't told us anything about where your dick's been.

James: What about me? Fuck off, cocksucker. (All laugh) Oop! Is that right to say? Some of my best friends suck cocks so fuck you! What was your question?

Pete: How many dicks have you used as a pacifier?

James: Two. And they're seated next to me. (All laugh) Nah, man; I don't think that's my scene. Never tried it. I will say though, I have come extremely close to being penetrated by some random transwoman.

Pete: Really? You boys have had some-- crazy experiences, haven't you?

James: Yeah, we were talking; I was feeling her; I didn't mind that she was trans; but then, she tells me that she's into BDSM...

(Pause)

Pete: Ooh!

James: Yeah, and so-- I'm not into that, mate. I'm pretty open when it comes to sex; I'm not trying to get a whip anywhere near my dick - especially not by a woman who's been fucked over by the patriarchy or whatever; I will not have a dick after that night. (All laugh) So, immediately turned off, right? But I'm not trying to be rude, so I don't tell her. Then she tells me she's not planning to get any surgeries down there. Now, I'm super into vagina; I think it's beautiful and I love being in it, but I also like being open; she has a mouth and an anus, so I still continue talking to her; she's still pretty. And then - and this was the final straw for me - she tells me that she's into gender-bending sex. (Pause) That's code for she wants to put her dick in my anus. At that point, I'm like: 'Oh hell no!' (All laugh) Immediately, I told her I'd spent my entire life trying not to get in jail because my hands are sloppy; we agreed not to fuck; and my fuck was I relieved! (Laughter increases) Like, I've been in some dangerous situations - never have I ever felt like I had dodged a fucking bullet like that night. A bazooka!

Pete: Wow. You boys really have had the craziest experiences! Hey! Here's a fun question: are there any crazy rituals you do when writing your songs? (Pause) Wait a minute. I asked this, didn't I?

Harry: Yeah, you did.

Pete: Well, shit. Okay. (Pause) What was your answer?

(Pause)

Harry: Well, I guess we didn't answer that! (All laugh) It's really-- I don't think we have any specific ritual that's like: 'Oh, my god! We have to do this or else everything will suck.' I don't know - I think we just go into the studio; do our thing then ship it or whatever.

Pete: Really? There's no-- I don't know-- I've had bands come here and tell me that they never write songs without a single bottle of Budweiser each or whatever--

James: Well, when you put it like that...

Pete: Uh oh! (Laughs)

James: I mean, when we worked on this album, we took quite a bit of LSD. I think it has the potential to open your mind to some of the craziest experiences; your entire perspective changes; you start to see the world and the universe and everything around you in a totally different way--

Liam: That's code for: 'we were apeshit high'.

Pete: And that's why you shouldn't do drugs, kids!

(All laugh)

James: No, but really, after that experience, you start to see things differently, and I think that's important for artists - that they're able to see the world in a different light. That's how we get these innovative ideas that are extremely out of this world--

Pete: Because you're completely out of this world?

James: Exactly!

Pete: Let's talk about the album some more: there's a song here that talks about climate change?

Harry: Saturn's Rising! We absolutely love that one. Fun fact: we actually wanted to make it a single but-- I guess we didn't? I don't know why either.

Pete: Well, that's a shame because, just yesterday, there was a mass protest against climate change - I think the kids were effectively telling government to do something about it? I'm not entirely sure.

James: That's exactly what they were saying. And I think that's why I love this new generation is I think they're extremely smart and they know how to get what they want. I mean, sure, fifty percent of them will end up addicted to cocaine, but hey! We won't have shit by the time they are, so I guess it will all work out for the best.

(All laugh)

Pete: Prince Andrew's being accused of sleeping with a teenager?

Liam: I know - crazy, right?

Harry: Is it?

Pete: Now, what do you mean: 'is it?' (All laugh) Do you know something we don't, Harry?

Harry: All I'm saying is, the man drank tea with Jeffery Epstein! I can't trust anyone that drinks tea with Jeffery Epstein.

Pete: Yeah, but does that mean a man can't be friends with whoever they want to be friends with? I mean, does being friends with someone automatically mean that you get painted with the same brush as them?

Harry: Precisely that! I'll tell you something: I'm a very-- let's say protective man. I'm very protective of my girlfriend, right? And she's this tiny, weird little goth girl - always dressed in black; always looks pale; always in black makeup; so, you can imagine the insults that she gets dealt on any random day. And it pisses me off when people disrespect her. Now, I'm not scared to punch people in the face to defend her. She always asks me to stop fighting people for her. I never listen. Because-- That's my bint, right? So, I'm going to protect her.

Harry: So, one day she asks me why I never listen to her when she tells me not to fight people on her behalf. I tell her everything that I've just told you. And then she tells me she really doesn't like it because it paints a bad picture of me in her mind - something about how that makes her scared of me, and - more than that - she finds it disrespectful that I get into physical fights for her, she says something about misogyny, blah blah blah. So, I'm like: 'But you know me-- you know that's not what I'm trying to do.' I blow up, we have this huge fight because, like, how dare she call me a fucking misogynist, right?

Harry: And then she explains it to me, she tells me that she likes to think she knows everything about me, but when I get violent and start punching people in the face and start screaming, she is unable to recognise me under all that. And so, she finds it hard to see the difference between me and other disrespectful men, you know? So, yes, if you associate with horrible people - in whatever fashion - you start to not be different from them. Now, Andrew was-- like, sharing spoons and beds with this guy and you're going to ask me - and the general public - to think he's different?

Pete: Well, I'll stop you right there before you get us all in trouble! It's been fun to have you here. Just one more question: you've already tackled so many big themes on your first album - what next?

(Pause)

James: I mean, we've just released this album, Pete; let us breathe and then we'll come back when we have something!

Harry: But also, we're living in some pretty interesting times: there's always something happening. I don't think we'll ever run out of things to talk about.

Pete: Well, what would you say to someone that says, for instance, that musicians should stay out of politics and should focus on the music?

Liam: I don't know, like, who hurt you? (All laugh) I've never understood the sentiment. It's like, well, politics is a part of my life; are you saying I shouldn't talk about my experiences? That's weird. And it's also ironic because those people, without fail, always dismiss non-topical music, so what are you fighting against, really, you know?

Pete: Well, it's been The Indie Service. Get their album - Madonna Whore. It sounds incredible. These boys are funny. They're gonna make it far. Pete Cogle's Podcast Factory.

End.